A "I Peter 3:15-17" Reply

(Regarding Comment on Post 199)
Post 288

Although this is not the next post I had intended, it nonetheless comes very timely between posts.
It may seem like it is out of place and unrelated but by the end of the topic concept of these several posts you should see how it all works together very well.
This post is in reply to a comment recently left on Post 199 “The 7th King” posted June 7, 2011, and to make the discussion less confusing I have reposted that comment here as it is quite timely in our present topic. I would recommend a review of that post, but the review is really not necessary to get the meaning in this “side topic” that branched off of the topic regarding the 7th king:

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space” Revelation 17:11.
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An Interesting Comment:

“Salam Alaykum.

You've based your research on the Shi'i branch while you haven't looked into the Sunni Branch which constitutes the majority of the islamic world.

Regarding the 12 Imams, First you should know that a Calif is at the same time a Imam in Islam, a Calif is chosen by Muslims to lead them (politically and religiously), thus making a Calif Imam as well.
Those 12 Imams, the prophet Mohamed Peace Be Upon Him said that the Ummah will unit around them, thing that hasn't been verified in the Shii Imams. Since Sunni people have never united under their claimed imams except Califs Ali and Hassan and they also reject Califs Abu Bakr, Omar and Othman (The first 3 Califs and Imams after Prophet Mohamed).

Now, as i cleared the misconception here.
Let's talk about the Sunni Branch.
Now, Quran tells us that :
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And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."
{As-Saf : 6}
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Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
{Al-A`raf : 157}
---------------------------

Thus, Quran clearely states that Jesus informed about a prophet who's called Ahmed (Ahmed/Mohamed i can't explain the relationship in such a short message, since it's pure arabic) and they should follow him.
Also the prophet Mohamed which is the last prophet sent by God after Jesus, warned us that the end of world is soon and it can come anytime. That's why for me you got 'he must continue a short space'.

Then comes the beast which is discribed as the eight. in Islam we believe that the AC will come and will have all non believers follow him except believers who will know that it's the AC they've been warned of.
And by Prophet Mohamed Hadiths, He's for sure the beast you've also been warned of, since all his followers will go to hell.

I hope i came up with some calrifications”
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In Reply: I have no desire or intentions to belittle Mr. Hassane for his beliefs that may be different from our own, he has kindly shown some of the clear evidence mentioned above in the Qur’an. My inclusion of his comment here is not to condemn but to provide a reply to these evidences as any person would in a conversation. The difficulty of such an electronic conversation, though awkward, is actually quite beneficial; it allows each party to speak uninterrupted, to get his thoughts made.
With that said, here is my reply:

My friend Hassane,
Thank you for your recent thoughts and comment on Post 199, I welcome most all honest thought whether it agrees with me or not because in the discussion we stretch our perspectives of reality to include challenges to what we are already sure is true, and in the investigation of the challenge we confirm the truth we have, perfect our skewed perceptions of what is actually true, and leave behind those perceptions discovered to be false.

Yes; I based my research in that post on the Shi’i branch as you have said. This is because they are the house (branch) that holds to the historical events, which are most surely identified by the prophecy in the study verse as I had shown. I did not include the Sunni house in that research presentation because they are not relevant to this verse, but I have not ignored their existence as you suggested, nor did I even miss the point that they are the larger branch of Islam (please see footnote *10 just above your comment).
But do not be alarmed in the fear that Sunnis might be soon obscured by the Shi’ites; in other posts I do and will yet cover the Sunni house, which is, like the Shi’ite house, also shown in the prophecies of Scripture, it’s just not in that post’s topic. I do not try to force my pre-determined “truths” into the scripture but rather let the scriptures push the flawless truths into my understanding and thereby push out wrong perspectives masquerading as truth but found to be flawed when investigated.
I understand your faith’s great internal conflict between houses and the need to defend the “truths” of your particular house from the “errors” of the other, but I would encourage you to lay aside your pre-determined truths to let the holy writ speak its pure unflawed message, and then see where that actually leaves any part of your current perspective of what is actually true and what is shown to be false. This philosophy of study will work as well for the Qur’an as it does for the Scriptures; it’s a universal scientific approach for discovering the actual truth in our known reality. Investigate ALL the evidence without a predetermined conclusion, and then see where that evidence leads. But this can only be done if we don’t deny an outside argument that might mess up our very pretty house of cards, as we have seen exampled by the “scientists of Evolution”, who have rejected a foundational argument that very easily destabilizes their weak theories, and only by the utter uninvestigated rejection of opposition can their house stand.
The Scriptures do not fear the Challenges of the Qur’an, but the claims of the Qur’an are not to be incorporated into the Scriptures as a benevolent enhancement such as you offered by explaining the Sunni perspective regarding the Jesus of Scripture; the Scriptures and the Qur’an are indeed diametrically opposed documents from diametrically opposed Gods, discussing the same events.
In this way I trust you will not be personally offended as I reply to your comments in a civil discussion of two intelligent people looking into the actual Truth regarding which God to believe, by taking on the Challenge of the other’s claims.
* * *

On your next point, regarding the 12 Imams:
Again it seems that you have not actually comprehended the post, as I did cover in the first paragraph under the heading “Caliph, Imam, 12th, Mahdi:” all that you say I missed. As I understand it, all Caliphs are Imams but not all Imams are Caliphs, like all Popes are bishops but not all bishops are Popes (*1).
Continuing your comment; Let me assure you that the Scriptures confirm by prophecy that the Caliph (unifying leader) of the historical Caliphate (Empire); [your word was Ummah *2], whomever that actually was, does not matter at this point because he did not unite Islam’s people, as Islam (albeit the other house) has already said was the reason; the 12th Imam was occluded before he could accomplish that task.
Now since both your branches are still looking for their Ummah’s leader to do just that (*3), isn’t it curious that the Scripture’s much older prophecy shows the future leader of that Caliphate/Ummah will succeed apparently by charisma, as the 12th Imam (Revelation 17:12-13, Daniel 8:23-24a) as I have explained through scripture in very curious detail. So from my angle of inquisitive observation, the many detail points to argue between Islam’s two houses regarding who that should turn out to be, is irrelevant. There is nothing in the Sunni writ or history that fits the prophesies of the much older Scriptures regarding this last leader. I understand that you might not believe the Scripture’s prophecies but you have to raise an eyebrow for how accurately the Shi’ite 12th Imam seems to fit.
But again, don’t be alarmed; according to Scripture, the Sunni’s have their own part to play in future events… I’m still getting to that in my blog!

So having said that, I don’t believe there are any misconceptions in my post that needed clearing up. Am I missing your point?
* * *

Regarding your next point concerning Sunni Doctrine:
I fail to see how your Sunni material about Jesus answers anything to the Post topic, and although quite out of place and opening the door to an unproductive debate that would most probably never end, I thank you for providing the passages you use to make your separate point; So few people go to these needful ends of validation so that a legitimate discussion can even be entered with anything other than baseless opinion that cannot be contested.
Regarding the topic of Jesus, it must be made very clear right up front, that while we can gain much from an honest theological discussion between disagreeing friends, the faith of the Scriptures is wholly exclusive of that of Islam. This is important to distinguish in the discussion because both Scripture and current events declare Islam as the kingdom of the Beast that rises for the purpose of destroying Jehovah's people (Daniel 7:21, 8:24, Revelation 17:13-14), while Islam declares that beast king to be the Messiah. And further, while the Scriptures have no need to incorporate Islam to be valid, the Qur’an, being utterly dependent on the Torah through the law of Hebrew Moses, needs to push its way into the Scripture’s faith, not to declare it as the wrong faith, but rather to change it into something it is not, much like Obama is doing to America. (The physical world and the Spiritual world always parallel in condition).

This is why while the non-Jewish Qur’an actually has very little to say regarding the day-to-day ministry of the actual historical Jewish Jesus, what it does say of him does not make any logical sense. Allow me to explain my concerns by using your own references:

“And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic" {As-Saf : 6}” (Qur’an Sura 61:6).

Completely overlooking the fact that the Islamic Muslims have nothing physical or spiritual to do with the Hebrew’s faith except a mutual patriarch (*4), the Qur’an simply presumes to have intimate knowledge of the Jewish Jesus. Right away that is simply not logical, yet this is the complete MO of Islam; to take over a land and a faith that is not theirs and then claim it as if it was by altering it until it is unrecognizable, as they did with the Temple Mount. In America we call that a Chop Shop.
By the use of “indeed”, the Qur’an seems to confirm what Christians already believe: that the Torah pre-spoke of this our Jesus (positively identified by the title: “the son of Mary”), but then it turns the actual meaning of the passage to say that the Torah was actually not speaking of Jesus but rather pre-speaking of something and someone other than Jesus (who was just “bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me”). Both you and Sura 7:158 confirm that 61:6 is indeed intending to mean Mohammad as the someone, who curiously came before the Qur’an was written, and that, at his instruction, to promote himself and include things that Jesus was supposed to have said about him, though it didn’t make it into the Hebrew record of his ministry.
Doesn’t it strike you odd that in the plethora of Scripture describing his very words, Jesus seemed to utterly fail that presumed mission since not a word of his lengthy recorded ministry promoted anyone other than God, as his Father, making Jesus himself God the Son? In fact rather, Jesus and his followers (that were noteworthily instructed by Jesus himself [Matthew 11:1]), made quite a big deal out of instructing everyone NOT to follow another that would come after Jesus (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8, II Timothy 4:3-4, II Peter 1:16, etc.). John the Baptist, though having known Jesus for who he was, still asked if they should be looking for another to fulfil the prophecies. And further, they declared anyone who denied that Jesus was indeed the only Son of God was to be considered accursed (I Corinthians 12:3):

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” Galatians 1:8.
This is so important that he repeats it for effect (v.9).

There can be no mistake that Jesus claimed to be, not only the Son of God, but the promised Messiah too:

“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” Matthew 16:16-17.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 14:6 (see also Matthew 7:15 in light of Matthew 7:14 in light of Jesus claiming to be that narrow door:

“I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” John 10:9, etc., etc.

And further, having pre-knowledge of the Qur’an’s claims that another would come after Jesus, God pre-wrote into the events of scriptures an answer to Sura 61:6, through John the Baptist:

“Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, and said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?” Matthew 11:2-3.

John the Baptist was Jesus’ front man, he knew the spirit of God in Jesus even before he was born (Luke 1:41,43-45), so why would John, after hearing of Jesus' works, question if this was the one of prophecy or if there would be another? The answer is because of all the Types, confirmed in scripture, that came first: Was Moses the Christ? No. Was Joshua the Christ? No. How about Elijah or Elisha? No. Was king David? No. Was John the Baptist? No. etc. these were all just Types of the Christ that was long prophesied to come. Being locked in prison, John could not see it for himself but heard of the works of Jesus that fulfilled the prophecies, so he had to ask to make sure; “are you indeed THE ONE that we are looking for, or are you just another Type?” The Qur’an claims that Jesus was a prophet, perhaps even a Type, but Jesus himself responds not with affirmation of words that could be made-up, but with the evidence:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed in he, whosoever shall not be offended in me” Matthew 11:4-6.

So how do these miracles confirm that this is indeed the long promised Messiah; the scriptures themselves are full of miracles.
It’s because these miracles themselves are simply an allegory to what they mean! The spiritually blind see, the spiritually crippled walk, the spiritually unclean are made clean, those who cannot “get” the spiritual message are now able to hear it, and the gospel is not to the Jews only; it is now to the Gentiles! These specific miracles were the physical manifestation of the spiritual things promised. And if you receive this truth that Jesus is indeed THE ONE, you too will be blessed.

So then why did John question if Jesus was THE ONE of promise? It was because Jesus did not seem interested to fulfill other prophecies of promise, such as global dominance and an earthly kingdom. This disparity is the crux of the Jesus debate between the Scriptures and the Qur’an, but I explained the answer to John’s dilemma in Post 246 “Moses in Two Parts”. Jesus must return to complete the prophesies, but it must be and will be the same Jesus.

I am not trying to sell you on these verses of Scripture that is not a part of your faith, but obviously they utterly conflict with what the Qur’an claims about Jesus and his words. The scriptures are literally stuffed with such affirmation of Jesus as the long promised Messiah.
Ok, let’s leave that alone for a bit and move on:

“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. {Al-A`raf : 157}” (Qur’an Sura 7:157).

Al-A’raf :157 seems to declare Christians are safe (successful), since we follow Jesus the Messenger found in the Torah. But wait! This Messenger that the Qur’an claims the Torah speaks of, is him which we confirmed that the above Sura 61:6 claims was actually speaking of another Messenger, i.e. Mohammad.

So let me get this right; Jesus, the very central focus of both the Torah and the Gospel, by Prophecy and fulfillment, by miracles and scriptural integrity (consistency)…that Jesus, failed to successfully proclaim Mohammad and instead claimed himself to be the only way to God, yet even AFTER that, he is after-the-fact of this failure, promoted as a prophet in the Qur’an that was written after the completion of his ministry by his death, this Jesus is the messenger sent by Allah to declare Mohammad and the one still to come? Can you see how this is really not looking like a plausible argument? Something doesn’t smell right.
* * *

It cannot be historically argued against the fact that both the Torah and the Gospel came hundreds of years before the Qur’an. And while the Jesus of both the Torah and the Gospel is the same Christ declared to be the Son of God and the entire point of the whole scriptural Message, the Jesus of the Qur’an has several conflicting faces, none of which agree with the Message of Scripture and the Gospel in part or as a whole package (Please see all the related conflicting passages of the Qur'an at footnote *9 on Post 263 Seed of Angels http://when-did-reason-die.blogspot.com/2012/09/seed-of-angels_2131.html).
In short, either Jesus was the Son of God as he declared, or he was a whacked lunatic for making such an obviously crazy claim. So how can the Qur’an even support him as a venerated prophet, let alone as the messenger given to herald someone as important as Allah’s Messenger; Mohammad? It makes no sense… unless your God is a notorious liar. And if he is, the Scriptures already identify that liar as the Enemy of God and our souls (I John 2:22-23, Titus 1:12-13):

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” John 8:44 (See Daniel 7:22,26-27).

And if your God is a liar (Kitman and Taqiyya *5) then the whole Qur’an is an irrelevant waste of paper that cannot be trusted. So which is it? Is Jesus the Christ and Son of God or is the Qur’an a lie because it denies it but calls him a venerated prophet anyway? (Sura 42:13).
And then, if that is not suspect enough, we are to believe that when Jesus returns he is going to virtually undermine his entire first coming by telling the world he was wrong and kill all those who follow his first message? Such an individual should be committed, not a premier herald of God’s way as the Qur’an speaks of Jesus:

“He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein.” Sura 42:13.

In my upcoming major section of the blog I intend to show in detail that long-range undivided religion that Allah has planned, but that Jehovah has known and planned against, even longer:

“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:…” Isaiah 46:9-10.

Only those ignorant of both the Qur’an and the Scriptures will assume that Allah and the Father are the same God. And if they are not, Why does the Qur’an spend so much time trying to “fix” the faith of the Scriptures rather than just reject it as false?
The reason is found in the most common cry of his faithful; “Allah is Greater” (*6). Greater than what?
Like the little man with a complex, Allah appears to need someone to fight against and thereby prove his manliness.
In contrast, Jehovah simply declares; “I Am” (Exodus 3:14): 1961 a primitive root to exist,
and also declares himself; “Jehovah” (Exodus 6:12): 3068 (the) self-Existent or Eternal.

Jehovah doesn't need to use Allah in order to prop-up his claims by comparison, God is not greater; he simply is the Only One.
This will become very significant in posts to come.
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Just For General Clarification:
Because of the tenor of this reply I feel it is important to state now, for those that feel the need to jump on this discussion, that I really don’t wish to get into a debate here; that is not the purpose of this Blog, and I don’t go onto Islamic Blogs to sell my argument. If Islam is your thing then great, go do that, I am not trying to sell you anything.
But if you are curious about what the scriptures say, about anything, including Islam, then I welcome the discussion, even if you disagree. Likewise I ask you not to try to sell me anything either, I am quite content with my God and you will be wasting your time. This Blog is for those who are not quite happy with what they have, and for Jehovah’s people who are not making Him very happy. And to encourage everyone that Jehovah is available to all who will simply turn to him, Jew, Gentile, Catholic, or Muslim.
I have not apologized for my constructive criticism of yesterday’s and today’s Christianity, and Judaism, so it should not be seen as Islamaphobia for me to also criticize Islam for their hypocrisies too. As I tell my own people; You cannot rightly comprehend the Scriptures while clinging to your “other ideas”.
* * * * * * *

*1 “Benedict XVI is the 265th and current Pope, by virtue of his office of Bishop of Rome…” - (http://www.catholic.org/pope/).

*2 Ummah: “is an Arabic word meaning "nation" or "community". It is distinguished from Sha'b, which means a nation with common ancestry or geography. Thus, it can be said to be a supra-national community with a common history.
It is a synonym for ummat al-Islamiyah (the Islamic Nation), and it is commonly used to mean the collective community of Islamic peoples. In the context of Pan-Islamism and politics, the word Ummah can be used to mean the concept of a Commonwealth of the Believers (أummat al-muʼminīn)” - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah).

Note: I really don’t like using Wikipeida as a source because it is not a source, only a collection of information and opinions of unknown people with unknown agendas. But it has forced its way into the prominent place as the online dictionary and by researching my inquiry elsewhere, I find it is often the most easily explained compilation of that material which can be linked, and so I use it when it is the most clear.

It is my studied opinion that “Ummah” is the polite version of “Caliphate” and I will use these words interchangeably, but this does not mean that I do not recognize the distinctions made between the two contending houses by their use. Yet the fact that both houses through the Quran are looking for their leader that will unite Islam, and the fact that Ummah is distinguished from Sha’b, suggests strongly that both houses are in fact looking for the “Ummah” to comprise of the entire globe and not just their traditional lands… just as our scriptures have already stated more than 500 years before Mohammad (Daniel 11:36, 12:1, Revelation 12:12, etc.).

“And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition” Revelation 17:10-11.

This king is more probably the multi-layered Ahmad referred to in Sura 61:6 of the things that came before in the Torah. Ok fine. But our Jesus and the prophets of the Torah, which Islam claims to honor, declare this king to be the son of perdition and destined to go there, yet the Qur’an promotes him as the Messiah (Last Caliph).

Because the Christian’s God cannot lie, does not lie, and does not condone his people to lie, we cannot accept error as from our God. If our faith is flawed then it must be rejected outright and not re-written to accommodate the conditions as do the Orthodox “Jews” for not having a temple. But before we reject that faith we must earnestly search out the probability that we misunderstand it. This is what I am recommending to the Muslim believer. Just earnestly look.

*3 Sunni’s also look for the Mahdi:
See the last sentence of footnote (*8) in post 199:
“In Sunni traditions, there are several hadiths referring to the Mahdi.” - Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi).

*4 A Common Patriarch:
“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” Matthew 3:9.

Yes this statement of John the Baptist was speaking to the Orthodox Jew of his day but the point is the same to the Muslims who also claim such pedigree as justification.

“For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But (the real issue is that) he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondange, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all” Galatians 4:22-26.

You see, the acceptable son of Abraham is the one who will: “Bring forth therefore fruit meet for repentance:” Matthew 3:8, regarding their wrong perspective in v.7 of escaping the coming wrath (Colossians 3:6)… Jew, Muslim, or even none blood relative Gentile, by bringing such fruit, can become the adopted son of Abraham (Galatians 5:1):

“Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all” Colossians 3:11.

The Scriptures, Old and New, have A LOT to say to the children of Hagar (Agar), and I encourage you to read the context on either side of these passages that I offer here.

*5 Kitman and Taqiyya (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Lying_and_Deception_in_Islam):
“Sunni Muslims argue that Kitman and Taqiyya as strictly a Shi’a doctrine. Yet, Ibn Abbas, the most renowned and trusted narrator of Islamic tradition in the sight of the Sunnis upholds the practice by Sunnis: Commenting on Qur’an 3:28, as narrated in Sunan al-Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, Ibn Abbas said: “al-Taqiyya is (merely) the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith.” - Walid shoebat “God’s War on Terror” p.74 and note 26.
“Nine-tenths of (the Islamic) religion is Taqiyya (dissimulation), hence one who does not dissimulate has no religion.” - Al-Kafi vol. 9 p. 110.

I have simply scratched the surface of this very fundamental concept in Islam that creates so much confusion that the truth cannot be discovered, as in the missing information from most websites regarding the importance of the Hudaibiyah treaty: the ability to peaceably grow stronger for a later conquest.
My blog is not to teach or even to refute the Qur’an, but only to teach the Scriptures. I have no problem discussing earnest questions with people looking for answers, but I have no desire to debate with people who are happy in their faith.
I hope this adequately answers your comment, and I thank you for your interest.

*6 “Allahu Akbar”:
meaning: Allah is Greater” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahu_Akbar_%28disambiguation%29).
*